OK, so most of the regulars here know I have been around for a while now and appreciate that I love to submit TV shows and various other bits of odd media when I can.

As we grow and with probably with more S.P.I.N. pledges around the corner, I would like to bring up an idea that I have been thinking about that might benefit the way the database works.

As it currently stands we use the Film form for:
- feature films
- tv films
- tv series
- tv episodes
- promotional video
- music videos
- film shorts

I totally agree that this form is to be used for all types of 'filmed' media and that just because it says 'Add Film' it is not constrained to just hollywood blockbusters. However I often see new comers confused (rightly so) when they see the various other types of film media being added as films.

To overcome with, without too much complication I would suggest a drop-down of film types. IMDb employ this logic as items will show up as Movie (for feature films), TV Film (for TV films) etc etc.

What this could then allow is filtering/grouping on credit pages. So for example the page for Hank Azaria who has a lot of credits for his voice work in The Simpsons would be easier to navigate and filter out.

This field would appear below the title and would be a required field - of course this would mean going back over the nearly 25,000 film entries already added - but would help for the future.

I suggest the following types:

Feature Film (or) Movie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_film
A item of film with a running time of at least 40 minutes (as per AFI and BFI rules) which "could be considered the principal or sole film to fill a program".
Example: https://www.filmo.gs/film/55053-scream

TV Film
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_film
An item of film which was made for television. This film type follows the same rules as a Feature Film/Movie but was not shown in traditional theatres and instead premiered on a Television network/channel.
Example: https://www.filmo.gs/film/72652-high-school-musical

TV Show/Series [TV Show appears to be the international nomenclature)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_show
An item of film which is made up of parts (episodes) that come together to form series/seasons/volumes. This item type is more of a container but cannot be simply replaced by a series credit for the following reasons:
- a lot of people will search for a TV show by its name not by a specific episode (for example, The Simpsons instead of A Streetcar Named Marge)
- the TV show entry will usually contain credits for the majority cast, isolating one-time/cameo appearances which would be credited upon the episode pages
- some releases exist which contain a string of clips from episodes re-edited into a feature-length presentation that are often regarded to as 'Best of'. These releases do not contain any episodes in full and so could not be credited to their individual episodes (without some sort of notation system being employed). It is easier for this releases to be simply (and only) linked to their respective TV shows.
Example: https://www.filmo.gs/film/40364-the-simpsons

TV Episode
An item of film which is part of a group of other episodes, to formulate a series or season of a TV show. This item type works in the same was as a Feature Film type in that it will have a premiere date and full cast. However it will likely share it's genre (and at times) sub-genre with that of its counterparts. TV episodes are linked to releases when they appear in their full format. Clips from a TV episode appearing on a release (such as a compilation/Best Of) would not qualify to be linked, the suggestion would to be to link to the TV Show overall.
Example: https://www.filmo.gs/film/40389-a-streetcar-named-marge

Promotional Video
An item of film which was produced with the intention of promoting a specific product or service but has a longer run-time than that of a commercial/advertisement. This type could also be used to categorise filmed media that is included with another product. This type doesn't mean that if the release states it is a promotional item it must be of promotional video type.

This type could do with having a different name or stricter rules on what classifies as Promotional Video.

Example: https://www.filmo.gs/release/57540-gymate-introductory-exercise-programme-complete-training-workout
(or something like the Disney World resort promotional videos)

Music Video
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_video
An item of film that is "a short film that integrates a song with imagery, and is produced for promotional or artistic purposes."

Example: https://www.filmo.gs/film/179201-britney-spears-baby-one-more-time

Short Film
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_film
An item of film that "is any motion picture not long enough to be considered a feature film. The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences defines a short film as "an original motion picture that has a running time of 40 minutes or less, including all credits"".

Example: https://www.filmo.gs/film/37186-tin-toy

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Possible issues/other types required:
- Documentary

Documentaries are odd in that some of them are classed as feature films (https://www.filmo.gs/film/68660-la-marche-de-lempereur), some of them are broadcast on television as stand-alone items [TV Film] (https://www.filmo.gs/film/222378-westminster-abbey-a-house-of-kings), some of them are broadcast on television as part of a series [TV Show/Episode] (https://www.filmo.gs/film/66850-planet-earth) and some of them are produced as pure home-video content such as https://www.filmo.gs/film/38769-houses-great-and-small. The issue is that for the last example there there is currently no type suitable.

  • Direct to Home Media

I really don't like this type but it may be a requirement. The issue is that it could be abused/misused when a better film type is suitable. However this then provides us with a type that we can store items that were not released in theatre, not shown on TV in any capacity, are not promoting a product or service. From what I gather IMDb currently treat these items as 'TV Film' type but I think this is incorrect.

  • Public Service Media / Educational Media

Some of the more eclectic of us like to dig out and collect items of film (on any medium) that were not sold to the general public, but have since found their way onto online marketplaces, flea markets, thrift stores and eventually our hands. These items usually are less than 40 minutes in run time and so could be considered 'Short Films' but some have the run-time of a normal feature film (for example this https://www.filmo.gs/release/3777-carol-vordermans-video-class-national-curriculum-maths-level-6-13-14-yrs with a run-time of 90 minutes!). I'm not sure what the solution is here - possibly classification on a case-by-case basis

  • A Catch All/Miscellaneous/WTF/Experimental Film

I hate this section when trying to classify items. Purely because most people who are too lazy (like me at times) will simply file items under this banner when they don't really fit into any other category. Examples that don't fit in any other category are things like: https://www.filmo.gs/release/211630-the-call-of-hawaii (film entry pending on my part) which is 30 minutes of shots accompanied by music. I know there are some rave-inspired VHS tapes which just play a series of groovy images to pumping techno which can have run-times of over 1 hour. Again I don't know the solution to this current problem.

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Let me know what you think.

Are there any other film types that we could consider?
Are there any potential widespread issues of mis-classification/categorisation (that go beyond the odd mistake)?
How many film types should we consider before it becomes too difficult to maintain/difficult to understand?
Does anyone else have any ideas of how we can split/organize the growing films section of the database?

To expand, here are some film entries which I think could prove difficult to classify:

https://www.filmo.gs/film/38761-the-adventures-of-woosh

Educational film on road safety created by car manufacturer Renault distributed to selected schools in the UK; never sold to the public, not shown on TV, not given a theatrical release, cannot be regarded as public information video, short enough to be classed as a film short, promotes the safety of Renault motor vehicles through the thin veil of teaching road safety

https://www.filmo.gs/film/228467-fun-with-numbers
Educational film for pre-school children teaching them basic numerical skills (mostly counting). Too long to be considered a short, sold to the general public but produced as a direct to video item, isn't promoting any products or services, was never broadcast on television or premiered in a theatre, isn't a documentuary

https://www.filmo.gs/film/88406-waterfall-the-movie
A film item that are a series of images of waterfalls in Ireland accompanied by music, too long to be a short film, doesn't really have the qualities (aside from run-time) to be a film, was never given a theatrical release, was never broadcast on television, does not promote any services or products, doesn't serve an educational purpose.

If there was a FILM TYPE field, I think people would confuse that with Genres. However, I agree that there should be a less confusing way to denote films from TV shows and episodes, etc.

I think some of your examples are genres rather than types - as you defined at beginning of thread.

Library of Congress has a listing of genres (and sub-genres). pdf file is large.

I think the 'add film' can cause confusion in itself. I just added a concert dvd, and found myself wondering if its content should be added as a film. (I decided it did.)

However, a problem of definition multiplies with a dropdown menu. For example what defines a 'feature film' as opposed to a 'short film' differs from nation to nation. Plus as SAV mentions above. Some people seem to think documentary can't be a feature (when actually 'feature' only refers to duration). Some fools on IMdB still tag films 'TV movies', just because they were made by a TV channel, regardless of whether they had a theatrical release, or not.

I think a catch all term for definable content might indeed be best for an international database, and perhaps 'film' suffices - as long as it is suitably defined as a flexible catch-all in the submission notes.

My opinion - attempting to classify the CONTENT of a home video release - for this particular site - is overextending. I understand, and agree with, the idea of having an easy way to find all releases with specific content. However, I think it should be limited to FILMS and TELEVISION SHOWS.

Filmogs should have a strong foundation of RELEASES - quality above quantity and a solid, well thought out database. Then add and expand the scope of the site. Focusing on FILMS entries is almost like trying to redo what tons of other sites already have. Indexing home video RELEASES is unique and something I have never seen on this sort of level.

I like the idea, but like EK_ said, there can be some confusion between genre and film types. I’m not sure there should be a separate entry for tv film though, also I think documentary is a genre on its own, but also a film type.

I’d like to add Concert Film as a film type. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_film

For simplicity, I think two general categories - Film and TV show

There could then be types or genres that fall under either category.

Doesn't solve all problems, but just an idea.

I think that idea is good.

I agree with a lot of the points made here - I fear that we would forever be in lengthy discussion of what film fits in what box.

I think this is a great idea, thanks a lot sound.and.vision for starting this conversation and for providing such a clear overview of how it could be implemented. Starting with Film and TV shows is a great jumping off point.
Stay tuned, hopefully we'll have something for this shortly

I've been thinking this is needed for some time, i'm glad sound.and.vision put the thought and effort in to articulating it. Feature films, TV shows and music videos are probably the most necessary and urgent categories. I think we need to be able to distinguish these. It would be good if we could somehow solve the TV series-> TV episode problem this way also.

Short films and TV movies is maybe less necessary, and I guess the distinctions are kinda arbitrary, but I still think it would be worthwhile, IMDb doesn't seem to struggle with it.

Documentary is a genre I believe. As you've said, a doco can be a feature film, TV series, short film etc.

Also good categories:
Public service/ Educational
Promotional/Instructional/commercial

Maybe a 'Performance' category for concerts and dance recitals and art installations etc.?

That just about covers all film types, bar a few odd ones like those sound.and.vision describes, but i'm sure that problem could be solved.

It seems like there is a concern that this will be confusing but personally I think adding 'Film Types' can only remove confusion and it will make the site much easier to navigate.

I agree with some of the comments about the original idea being too diverse but ti is a great idea.

My thoughts:
- I think Film is fine as a catch all for all films, features, TV, Short, they are all films.
- Documentary is not suitable for this field, it is fine in genre and would make things more confusing, all docos should fit into film, tv episode or possible other options.
- Do we want 'TV Show' as an option when really it is desired that individual episodes be entered?
- Music Video should definitely get an addition.

I think just splitting it to TV and Film is too little. I have been browsing the Films section, and would've actually appreciated the possibility to weed out certain type of films (mostly music videos and tv episodes), or the possibility to browse only films.

Also, there might be some overlap between genres and types, but IIRC the genre/subgenre section has been used for these because we had no other choice. It would be nice if the genres were just for genres, and adding a 'type' field would ensure that.

I would support having at least:
Film
Short Film
TV Show
TV Episode
Music Video
Promotional Video

I'm not convinced we need to separate theatrical/TV/Direct-to-video films, but if it's seen necessary, I'm not going to oppose it.

We just released some changes that include a category field on films. We think it covers a lot of the points mentioned here, do let us know if you have more feedback.

This rules. Thanks, @kalli.

Happy to hear that lexiconangel, do let us know if there's any questions or more feedback.

I am going to see how i go with the new rules.

I have seen they are required, do we click film for film and tv show for a show of a tv?

And TV series for like seasos's of shows?

I hope that is correct

@bnoi: Yes that was the intention. So The Simpsons would be a TV Show / TV Series and Marge vs. the Monorail would be a TV Episode

Thanks Kalli.

What abour cinema films there is no movie of film unless i am missing something for example.

I added more credits to Captain Marvel and had to put it under other.

There was feature film but i thought they were for like indie films at festivals.

Sorry if i missed it up i better read it

And also do i put wrestling dvds under other for now?

Feature Film is to distinguish it from Short Film

A feature film or theatrical film is a film (also called a motion picture or movie) with a running time long enough to be considered the principal or sole film to fill a program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_film

And also do i put wrestling dvds under other for now?

I guess they should go under other yes. Perhaps further categories will be needed later.

Oh opps i will fix captain marvel up right now sorry for that.

Thanks Kalli and i am sorry for messing it up.

Maybe future catagories fould be Sport?

On the discussion of film, what would I do for releases that don't have a credit roll at the end of it? For instance, there's Video Catnip (which I created a film page for before there were requirements on credits) and the promotional Nintendo VHS tapes like Star Fox 64: Check Out The New Rumble Pak. I don't have the neccessary infromation to fill out a film page for it, and these haven't and I doubt will be re-released again.

Should I just leave them as individual releases kind of like how releases are done on discogs if there aren't 2 or more of the same release to make a master release?

@bnoi:

Maybe future catagories fould be Sport?

I imagine we'll see what categories might be needed as more things get added.

@WolfXCIX
hmm, that is a good question (I love the examples you provide too). I'm not really sure what is the best way to go.

Should I just leave them as individual releases kind of like how releases are done on discogs if there aren't 2 or more of the same release to make a master release?

That would be one way to do it. Adding a film isn't mandatory.

I just wanna say thank you to the staff / admin team for adding a film i made into the film type field category help section.

I know for the other section you could of chosen many other films but chossing the classic wrestling battles.

Thanks guys this database has been a blast so far and i will help in contributing

i noticed quite a few film types have been added. Some however still don’t have a correct genre to file it under. music video and concert should have Performance or something like that to file it under.

Concets have concert recordings

And music videos are music videos

To me that seems farley resanable

I mean unless your talking about something else which have missed?

Concets have concert recordings

And music videos are music videos

Yes, but those are film categorie. both of those are still missing the correct genre. I think Performance should be correct since it would be fit for both Music and performance art like Ballet.

Argh yes, sorry i miss understood.

I think performance would be a great addition to the database

Hello all

I know this is kind not relavent but i need a bit of guidence.

I just added a bulk blu ray 1 disc which has some tv series on the disc how do i link the episodes?

I made the base Tv series but how do i link tv episodes to that series or do i have to add them to the release?

Here is the link help would be apriciated.

https://www.filmo.gs/release/313294-retro-action-3

Any thoughts on adding in "film serial"? Should I just use tv show/tv series for this...or other?

Maybe TV show/ series though i would wait for staff to reply.

Any thoughts on adding in "film serial"?

as in Jason Bourne, James Bond, Narnia, LOTR?

Deffinition of serial film

A serial, film serial, movie serial or chapter play, is a motion picture form popular during the first half of the 20th century, consisting of a series of short subjects exhibited in consecutive order at one theater, generally advancing weekly, until the series is completed

Good idea here, that fortunately was pursued.
But: Concerning TV episodes for example, we still have "film" written below -- which isn't quite beneficial...

bnoi is correct. Film serial isn't the correct term for film "franchises" like Bond, Bourne, Harry Potter etc.

After starting to work on this a lot more, it almost seems like a "series" entity could be used to parent films and perhaps "season" objects that would be contained in the series. And perhaps a film could be a part of a series if it is a special standalone film made with television series characters as a part of that series, when that film really isn't part of a season. And perhaps series could have a peer to peer relationship being linked to other series too, when you have spinoff series from an earlier series so that one can go to a series through navigating that series that one might not know is connected to that series.

As an example, Doctor Who "series" would be linked to Torchwood, and Class spin off series. I guess one would need to distinguish if a series "reborn" that tries to be a part of the same series many years shouldd be looked at as a spin off or part of the same series. Doctor Who fits this category when it was reborn in this century from earlier times. Another example of a reborn series would be the Twilight Zone that was recently revived fromm its run in the last century.

Perhaps a series object would be too complicated to put in practice here, but perhaps it should be thought about to help users navigate the television world of content.

This is an idea.

Is it possible to have a filming / filmed at section in the films. It would also be cool if we could add like the cities that movie was filmed in.

Like if a film was filmed in London we would write London in filming locations.

Is it possible to have a filming / filmed at section in the films. It would also be cool if we could add like the cities that movie was filmed in.

Like if a film was filmed in London we would write London in filming locations.

Whoa...way too complicated at this point. Add that sort of thing in the NOTES for now. And remember, FILMOGS is primarily for PHYSICAL HOME VIDEO RELEASES. All this other stuff is fine but should not be the main focus for developers. 5/6 years in and there still are many issues to work out. I don't believe adding such features will benefit the site.

Whoa...way too complicated at this point. Add that sort of thing in the NOTES for now. And remember, FILMOGS is primarily for PHYSICAL HOME VIDEO RELEASES. All this other stuff is fine but should not be the main focus for developers. 5/6 years in and there still are many issues to work out. I don't believe adding such features will benefit the site.

+1

Another idea.

Being able to see credits / releases attached to a film marked sensitive.

At the moment when i click on a sesnsitive item there is no releases linked to film page when there is a film made for that release.

I'm sure I've made comments about this a long time ago, but films and TV series have somewhat different heirarchies, in terms of the individual entities that can be collected under them. TV series have seasons and episodes, films don't. However, filmogs treats the relationship between a film and a release version, and a TV series and a series/season/collection of episodes/episode as the same. I think this still needs to be worked through properly.

Categorising by film/TV series etc is a good start; but grouping TV series and episodes together is not, in my view, ideal.

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